Military Precision in Human Factors

Tim Page-Bottorff is one of the leading authorities on safety. He began his career in safety as part of a team of U.S. Marines suppressing oil fires during Operation Desert Storm.

For two decades, he’s been a full-time safety professional, widely published, recognized as a Safety Professional of the Year by the American Society of Safety Professionals and received the National Safety Council’s Distinguished Service to Safety Award in 2018.

Tim is a Senior Safety Consultant for SafeStart and, most recently, is the author of The Core of Four: 4 Tools To Navigate Roadblocks to Great Human Performance.

 

Listen to the complete interview

 

Interview transcript

Let’s dive right in. So Tim what motivated you to pursue a career in safety?

Technically, I wasn’t motivated to pursue a career in safety. It just happened. I always use the pun-intended I “fell into safety” or I “slid into safety” and what I guess technically motivated me was a couple of people.

I got out of the military thinking that I’d be working in hazardous materials because of the certifications I had leaving the military. Got a job offer by Motorola to work in the environmental health and safety department inspecting hazardous waste drums and moving hazardous materials around and responding to emergencies with the emergency response team.

They offered me a position as a staff engineer and the caveat was that I had to go back and finish school, so I had the Montgomery G.I. Bill leave in the military and I ended up getting the SWOT, finishing school, and became a safety engineer and started working on lockout/tagout and things like that from a safety program perspective.

It really felt like it was in my wheelhouse. In other words, I basically thought that this was a cool thing to do and I really enjoyed it. But I found my niche during training for all the programs that I was managing and working on. And within the training room I got lots of feedback about how I was engaging people and how I was able to pull things out in a normal safety class that wasn’t normal.

So, in other words, I got people to actively participate and get engaged. And that right there just basically gave me a fire, a willingness to want to do more and I stayed active and pursued that career. So what motivated me to get into safety as my career? I have to say that it was the people that I worked with and the people that I trained and, basically, it was people.

 

What is it about your work that gives you the greatest meaning?

It’s a noble profession and we’re trying to save lives. I have to say that from an old cliché that saving lives is basically why I do it, but not really. That’s a great benefit and I think it’s collateral for me. But when I get to see people literally have the light bulbs click above their head and then kind of a fake cloud that’s not there, I see it… It’s basically a mere expression, they give me a nod and they go “oh” or they give me an “mhm” and I get a lot of, what’s the word? Motivation to me to maintain the profession and stay in the career, but the light bulbs clicking is just what gives me the greatest feeling about what I do and the work is noble.

And from a safety professional perspective, when you get people to understand your way of thinking and to follow certain regulations or policies that they wouldn’t follow in the first place? That right there is where it happens and, of course, the collateral is that people save lives and lives are saved and injuries are lessened. So that’s what gives me the greatest meaning.

 

How did your experiences serving in the Marines shape your perspective on human factors?

Well in the Marine Corps you have to do what you’re told or else. And having the discipline to do what you’re told and being able to do that mostly with supervision not around, that is where I got a lot of my experience.

I have to tell you, the very first year or two, I was very young and didn’t know a lot, and they used to say I was “wet behind the ears” but I learned a lot about having to follow rules and regulations without having to have any supervision around. And when sometimes when supervision isn’t around, you might try to take a shortcut, or two, or three, just to make sure that it gets done.

Because they try to get you get it done faster and you’re trying to do it, well, faster as well. And what I learned through that experience is that, being in the Marines, you’ve got what you’re told, but most importantly, when you’re on your own or by yourself—what is it that you’re going to do from a habitual perspective?

And, for me, I’ve had to work unsupervised for the majority of my life, traveling and doing those kinds of things, and these one, two, three or four shortcuts that I did take, I learned some valuable lessons. I didn’t get injured or get hurt terribly, but from a performance perspective and how human factors is, you don’t look at it in the Marine Corps as a human factor, but when you look back at it, it is quite clearly a human factor. And how it shapes what people do within a system? I learned a lot and from the Marine Corps perspective, I gained discipline enough to do what I have to do, to work by myself and when I’m working by myself I’m able to, well quite frankly, do the job right.

I did make some mistakes with the shortcuts when I was in the military, but looking back now, those shortcuts, those mistakes, they could have been a lot worse in terms of the outcomes and I’m grateful that they aren’t, and I’m grateful that they weren’t. But that’s what shapes my motivation in human factors and my perspective on looking at it now.

You know how it is, hindsight is 20/20. You look back at what you did. It kind of gives me the motivation to do what I gotta do now. And to do it right.

 

Are there habits that you formed in the military that have been with you since?

Yes. The easy one is waking up at 6:30 in the morning like a normal clock. You don’t need an alarm clock. It’s just time to get up. And I get up and I try to make my bed and I stay in a lot of hotels, so I don’t necessarily have to make my bed every morning but I shower, I get ready for my morning. It’s a normal routine that these kinds of habits have set me into—how do I say it—getting me in the mood to get ready for the morning.

Without these habits, that’s the easy way of looking at without these habits, but there’s all kinds of things that have happened. How I drive? I have really learned quickly that my attitude, while I was in the Marine Corps, was… the way I drive, I probably would have been run off the road by now.

But the Marine Corps has got me to see, from a habit perspective, that there are certain things like putting the four-inch crease on your sheets, that is basically the distance from where your weapon is held from your heart when you hold and present arms. That habit right there is kind of a cool thing because when I look at the sheets and four fingers and four inches, I know now that I can measure out, from a habit perspective, that’s a military thing.

Giving respect to people that work in a higher position than you, that is a habit that I’ve collected. Tying my shoes left over right with the shoe string, that’s a habit I’ve collected.

How do these all relate to real life? Making your bed, getting ready in the morning? Those are good habits. Now, have I collected any bad habits? Well, I kind of alluded to it about my driving. That’s something that I’ve been working on for many, many years, but it’s the better habits that have helped me shape the person that I am today.

 

Do you have a superpower?

This conversation came up in a direct discussion I had with a few people at ASSP. We were discussing our superpowers and, collectively, the people that I was discussing it with said my superpower is being able to shape people to tell good stories. So, in other words, when I’m having a discussion with people and they tell a story, I can give them feedback on the story and then make them shape a really good story that will make a great impact or more importantly, (inaudible) the anecdote to the story about a life lesson.

My superpower I guess would be, yes, I can get people to tell great stories. For me, that wasn’t what I thought my superpower was. I thought my superpower was connecting people. And I feel like connecting people from one need to another is where I find my niche. And I would say that I would have a combination of both, what people say about me and then what I say about myself.

I love putting people in connection with others and then I also like, well, not only telling stories but getting people to also tell really good stories for themselves.

 

In your view, what are the human factors that put people at the greatest risk of being injured or killed?

Now this is a personal opinion. State of mind is a big, big thing. But I think that the overarching idea of what might be causing the most—in terms of injuries and fatalities—is distraction, perception and bias. These internal factors for human factors. For me, distraction is something I’ve been studying for the last few years. Mostly while driving. It can also be an issue when people are moving away from vehicular or automotive work.

I have to say, for me personally, I think the biggest internal factors for human factors that put people at the greatest risk is just that: distraction, improper bias, or the lack of proper perception.

 

I want to dive a little bit into what you call The Core of Four, which of course is the title of your new book. Let’s start with the first of the tools, what a person is motivated by. What do you think is crucial about this particular aspect?

Motivation. You asked it right upfront. From a motivational perspective, if I was never interested in safety I would not even have pursued this career. So for me, you have to find what motivates you and when you list it on a piece of paper, it can serve as a constant reminder to make the right or proper decisions as you progress.

From a motivational perspective, if you’re not motivated to do it or if you have the motivation to not do something in other words, I have to say that if you list these things down, it can give you clarity, it can give you perspective, it can also make you think: I’m motivated by this and I’m not motivated by this, so let’s make a decision on what motivates me versus what doesn’t.

So from a motivational perspective, I use the word in the definition, but for me, if you’re not motivated to do it, you might make a decision otherwise. From that perspective, if you’re motivated to teach children, if you’re motivated to make money, if you’re motivated to get up and go to work, these things will shape your decision-making process all day long.

So listing it out and finding what’s motivating to you, that’s extremely crucial. I feel like it can get people to make better decisions in the future.

 

The second tool is accountability. Pretty common word, but relative to The Core of Four, how do you define it?

Accountability is nothing new. The quote that I use in accountability is, Samuel L. Jackson actually said it, “If you don’t discipline yourself, somebody else will.” And we’ll talk about discipline, but when you talk about accountability, you have to be accountable to someone, something or someplace.

And when you’re making decisions about your life, you’re making decisions in your workplace, or even at home, if you’re not accountable to something, you actually stray in that decision. So for example, I’m accountable to my boss, and my boss asks me to do certain things. And since I’m accountable to my boss, and I don’t do a certain thing that they ask, then I have to answer why I didn’t do those things.

So it’s a lot easier to be accountable to yourself, but yes, you are accountable to your boss, you’re accountable to your family, and that goes back to motivation. This shouldn’t motivate you to make the right decisions. Specifically when you look at who or what you’re accountable to.

 

Also in The Core of Four, you talk about “practicing perfectly”. Perfection can be elusive, so what do you mean by “practicing perfectly”?

I use my wife as an example in the book. My wife got invited to sing at Carnegie Hall. And there’s this old cliché that says, if you want to get to Carnegie Hall, practice, practice, practice is what you do to get there.

But when I was watching Sheila, I travel for work and when I get home on the weekends, I want to hang out and I want to go do things with her. And when I found that she got invited to Carnegie Hall, she was so focused on wanting to practice her parts. And what I found is during the weekend, it was a sacrifice for me, but she was up there practicing every single time she’d get an opportunity.

Whether or not she was making dinner, she was still practicing her parts. Now, on the flip side of this, if you don’t want to get to Carnegie Hall, well, then don’t practice. But I’ve also found that people, when they’re practicing, sometimes they practice and—I don’t know what the right term is, but I always use the term my dad said—half-assed.

What they end up doing in this half-assed practice is practicing poorly. And for me, right now I’m getting ready for a presentation I’ve got to do for ASSP, I find myself going through the rigmarole of PowerPoint, and reading, and structured research. And for me that’s good, but what could be better is if I gave myself an opportunity to perfectly practice.

So the analogy I gave with Sheila was that she was practicing perfectly and if I wanted to be more efficient in my PowerPoint work, and my research, and my studying, I would discipline myself in terms of time, I would practice perfectly in that regard too, but I found that—you know what?—with the time, the discipline, and the dogs, and the house, and the moving around, I haven’t been able to focus that time perfectly.

So the quote that you’ll find in “practice perfectly” is that “Practice doesn’t make perfect. It’s perfect practice that makes perfect. And poor practice will get you nowhere.”

 

The fourth tool that you write about in your book is exercising discipline. Can you cite an example that illustrates what you mean by that discipline?

Getting up in the morning when you know you have to and deciding not to. There’s roadblocks that get in the way to exercising discipline. But for me? I gotta get up and I gotta speak at a conference and if I don’t get up then I’ve not performed properly. And from exercised discipline perspective, there are things that I do to get up. I set an alarm, I set maybe three or four alarms.

Just a couple of weeks ago on a Friday, I was at an ambassador training and I set the alarm I thought, and didn’t double-check it, and when I didn’t get up when I was supposed to, I was running late. And, then of course, the human factors we talked about earlier kind of spilled in. What I didn’t do, I normally check the specific alarm, but on my iPhone I’ve got bedtime and I’ve got alarms. What I did set was bedtime and on Fridays I’m typically at home and I don’t like to wake up to an alarm, so my habit strength there was that I didn’t double-check my bedtime and I’ve got it turned off on Fridays.

And I don’t typically train on Fridays or work on Fridays, so now that I’m in the ambassador training program, I didn’t have my bedtime go off and I didn’t check it. I have a discipline I should have shared there or an exercising discipline was to remember that I had a habit of not doing this on a Friday and, of course, double checking my alarm clock to get up.

Now I did make it to my meeting on time, but it was because somebody called me from the meeting. He’s a really good friend of mine. Thank god for having that friend in place. But I did make it. But it could have been worse, I could have missed my meeting, could have been pretty bad, pretty embarrassing for not just double-checking my alarm clock.

 

What do you think is the best professional decision that you’ve ever made and what do you think that others can learn from that decision?

Oh, boy. That’s a good question. Best professional decision I’ve ever made? I have to say, getting my certification for CSP. Years, and years, and years before I was a safety professional and people were always telling me, “Hey, you know what? If you get your CSP this will happen, and this will happen, and this will happen”. But as a young professional I was just like, “No, I don’t need it. I don’t need it. I never needed it.”

And then, finally I made the decision that I should start studying some of the questions to see if it’s really an exam I want to take. And I did take the exam and, when passing the exam, it gave me a lot of feelings of: Oh my gosh. I know I passed Marine Corps boot camp, which at the time I thought was the toughest thing I’ve ever done. But it was taking the CSP exam. That was the toughest thing I’ve ever done.

And the studying, and the getting ready for it, and that decision to take the exam. Not only did I get over the hump of taking it, but it’s opened the doors to professional decisions, people asking me my opinion on certain things. It quite frankly made me a thought-leader in the industry of some of the things that I’ve said out loud. People are always asking for more. It kind of goes back to that lightbulb: “Oh, wow, that’s kind of cool. Tell me more.”

So what can others learn from that type of a decision? It’s a tough decision to make. But when you overcome the adversity of getting that type of certification, it’ll actually open a lot more doors.

 

Do you think the work you’ve done has ever saved anyone’s life?

I will say yes. I’ve had several people, specifically in the SafeStart realm, I’ve had a lot of people come up to me and tell me, or send me emails, or actually talk to me at conferences, “You know what? If it weren’t for you, I would have run a red light the other day, and if I did run the red light, somebody would have run through the red light. And they did, but I stopped.

I didn’t jump out of the red light like I normally do and I gave it an extra second to turn left and when I did, there was a car that ran the red light when my light turned green and I stayed there because of the training that you gave me.” So I have to say yes.

 

That’s gotta be a great feeling.

Yeah.

 

Have you ever come close to getting killed or seriously injured through, what you later realized, was a mental mistake?

The answer is yes. And mostly on the road. And the specific example is, somebody cut me off on the road and this is way back before I developed any good habits. This was back when I was actually practicing bad habits.

But yeah, somebody cut me off on the road, I didn’t like their driving around me and it was just me in the car and I kind of, well, not chased them down, I kind of followed them for a little bit, let them know how I felt about their driving. And they did it again. And I think it was intentional this time.

But what I should have realized in the beginning was that it wasn’t probably intentional in the first place and I have to give people the benefit of the doubt and never assume that they’re trying to cut me off intentionally, or they’re never trying to make me angry intentionally.

This translates into everything that I do now, not just on the road so, yeah, I could have been killed from a poor decision. And I hate to admit it, but I hope, well not I hope, I think a lot of us have been there before.

 

Let’s say that you, hypothetically, you could have everyone’s—and I mean everyone’s attention—but you’ve only got one minute. What would you say?

Stop judging people and let’s move forward together. The judging right now is, to me in terms of people, is tremendous and what you’ll find out, I’m doing a presentation this Saturday, on changing your perception and not letting bias rule the world.

And the presentation, well all the research that I’ve been doing, is that people nowadays have a lot of bias. And if it’s not their way, it’s going to be bad. And they try to coerce people into considering it to be their way. And I’m not going to get political on this type of conversation, but I see a lot in politics now.

For me, I think a lot of people are sending a lot of judgment statements. In other words: they got something about you. And it’s kind of like that opposition research that people do, so they find the negative in you as opposed to finding the positive in you.

So if I had a minute, I’d spend the minute trying to talk to people about finding the positive in people as opposed to finding the negative and judge less.

 

Same scenario, but instead of talking to everyone you’re talking to every CEO. How would your message change?

Well, if I went to the C-suite and talking to the CEO, how would I change that message up? I think changing that message up, well, I’d probably would slant it slightly in terms of the verbiage that I would use. But if we had an opportunity to get people together, we would work directly on their perception about things and then, of course, challenging how they perceive or what their biases are.

So if I went to the C-suite, I would say, yes we would still need to judge people less and find positives in people, but I would try to slant it in such a way that we can get the tools to people to do that. So I could have a great message and be able to deliver what I think is important, but not having the tools to deliver, or to implement, to their teammates or their employees. I would basically shape what the tools would look like in the C-suite with the CEO.

 

You do quite a few speeches about safety culture. How would you define that kind of a culture? Or maybe put another way, how can a company know if it has it or it doesn’t have it?

Oh boy. Yeah. I’m actually doing a talk on Monday on how people leapfrog from compliance to culture, so I’ll use what I’ve got in this delivery. So, companies use compliance basically as a tool to motivate their employees. Now, compliance does a great job motivating supervisors or managers to get things done, but it shouldn’t be your sole core foundation to building, well, safety culture.

And on LinkedIn, just even last night, I have some lively discussions about what culture looks like and to me, safety is really a climate. And if the temperature is right in safety and the business is evolving and doing the things that they do, then you’ll have a great business culture.

Otherwise what we’re trying to do in the safety world from a culture perspective is: let’s get people to do certain things. And the culture for me is people-based. So compliance-based is great in terms of what people do and how it motivates people to get things done, but if you want to see good, sustainable culture within a company, we have to give the people tools in addition to what we’re doing for compliance.

And how do I know if it’s been done or not? I can spend maybe 15 to 20 minutes in the very beginning walking around a facility, I would know whether the culture is there or not. For example, I can see people wearing certain PPE—personal protective equipment—or how people are interacting with their tools.

I can do that in observation. And I can do that without anybody walking around with me or with a clipboard, I can just stand or walk around and see whether culture is ingrained in the world of safety and that’s all it takes. It would actually be on the floor. Which is also a good tool for culture. Being on the floor. You don’t need to be in your office all the time, but being on the floor.

 

What do you think is the greatest single strategic error that companies make where it concerns the safety of their employees?

Profits. Profits is the only motivator. And to me, from a company perspective, I have to go back to a famous celebrity—I don’t know if he’s famous for some people, but for me he is—Mike Rowe. This is the example I use in compliance vs culture. Mike Rowe actually was filming a show called Dirty Jobs and in an interview on YouTube he basically told everybody that safety was third.

Strategically when companies make decisions to put profits over people or, I don’t know, the number of production widgets that need to be created over mindful safety, and that’s a strategic error.

What Mike Rowe says in his interview is that he did this filming and attended safety briefings for every job he went on. But when in the safety briefing, the words that he heard and the wisdom that he heard he went out and didn’t see it practically applied. What he found was safety was third after production and after certain decisions in terms of strategy. He thought that safety was not even up there and the culture for people was that they had to make these things, or get these things done before safety was even a forethought.

So for me, the greatest strategic error for people is that safety needs to be placed in the same verbiage as production and or quality or the things that people do to make business work.

 

So conversely, I’m going to take my cue from you in saying, let’s not just look at the negative. What do you believe is the most important decision that companies have made that preserves the safety of their employees?

People-focused. If they put people up there on the top shelf as a value, to me that’s one of the most positive things that people can do. So from a decision-making perspective, if people are the most important thing to them, that will provide a lot. Not in terms of just safety but also other things. The business would excel.

And this is what I’ve seen in my visitations working with direct front-line supervisors and managers. If the people are of the utmost concern, then we find that this to me is I think one of the greatest strategic decisions that people can make, that companies can make.

 

You do a lot of traveling around the world. Do you see differences in what makes a safety culture?

Absolutely. As a matter of fact I just did almost a 12-day trip through Africa and parts of the Middle East. I went from Nigeria to South Africa, to Kuwait, to even the United Arab Emirates and Abu Dhabi and Dubai. And with all the countries that I visited on that 12-day trip, I saw differences in every single one.

In Nigeria, the transportation infrastructure in that country is not well established.

And you could see people—I mean we, here in North America, most of us are wearing our seat belts and not standing up in the back of trucks, or loading a van to where people are standing with the door open. So yeah, I see culture changes there.

I also see that when I went to South Africa it was a complete, 100 percent change. Actually, the doors were closed on vans and there weren’t too many people standing in the back of trucks. Although I did see people in the back of trucks, I didn’t see the same amount or the same thing that I saw there in Nigeria.

And the same could be said for the Middle East. There were people that were driving down the road and maybe the speed limit was 65 mph, hypothetically they were driving maybe 85 or 90 mph. But their little two-year-old toddler was standing on the arm rest with their head outside the moonroof and just enjoying life.

And then conversations with the other safety practitioners, which are expats from another country. About 85 percent of the workforce safety workforce in the Middle East are expats. And what I found was that the conversation is that they will do whatever they want to do. Some people believe in the world of safety and some don’t. So yeah, culturally, I think I’ve seen things on the other side of the world that will be different than what we do here.

 

You talk a lot about humor in safety. That can seem like a contradiction because safety is typically seen as very serious. Can you explain why it’s not a contradiction?

I like this question because I found that if you’re not having fun in your job—it doesn’t matter if it’s safety or not—it’s a job that’s you’re going to try to constantly replace or look for something else. And for me, when we’re delivering safety, whether it’s in training or through meetings, we have to find a way—doesn’t matter if it’s a safety professional or a trainer or whoever it is that’s facilitating the meeting or training—we’ve got to find a way to make it lighthearted and fun.

So really what I’m talking about when I put humor together with the word safety, is that we have to have fun in the world of safety for the sake of safety, not in spite of safety. Yes, I’ve heard people joke about safety, I’ve heard people joke about certain things and that’s not what I’m aiming for.

What I’m aiming for is that I don’t want safety professionals to be comedians or jokesters, I want them to enjoy what they really do. What is it that they do? I’ve done some audits for training companies and I’ve done lots of train the trainers where people, they take this job seriously and I’m ok with that. But where I find the most retention and engagement for employees is that they’re actually enjoying the program or what they’re being trained.

So we have to find ways—and I’m talking we, the collective we, safety professionals, trainers all the likes—we have to find a way to make those things more energetic. And it’s not for the purpose of, like I said, poking fun at safety. What you’ll do is you’ll increase engagement and retention all at the same time, which for me, is more sustainable in the world of safety because if people remember what you told them or trained them, that’s more important than them walking away.

I find that for me, it gets people more jazzed up about wanting to return. So yeah humor in safety is a big deal for me, but I’m doing it for the sake of safety not in spite of safety.

 

You’re a father. Dads are often the de-facto chief safety officers of the family, but kids—especially once they become teenagers—well, they’re not shy about rolling their eyes and being dismissive of their dads and their dads’ safety warnings. Traveling back and forth from safety training sessions to your family, are there any secrets that you learned along the way?

Well, I started in an earlier career, so I got my kids instantly involved at a very young age in safety and parts of health. And also when I was studying for my CSP, my oldest daughter was thinking about becoming a math major, so she started helping me with the engineering and physics portions of the CSP exam and I was very grateful. Getting her involved with that, she was right up front and she was giving me help.

So I think getting the kids involved at a very early age is probably the best secret, so to speak, out there. Because once they’re involved at an early age, they don’t have time to argue when they get older, they know what it is they’ve got to do.

We don’t have an accident investigation, I’m not setting PowerPoint up in my living room talking about how to do this or that. I’m talking about when they were younger I would tell them what I would do because of, you know, as a safety professional and, as they grew older, we would talk about certain things that have happened to them. Maybe driving or maybe at their workplace—all the kids now, they’re all working—so we would have those discussions and I’d say: get started at an early age.

 

Writing a book is a serious undertaking. What motivated you to do it?

Oh boy. Larry Wilson is a great mentor of mine and I was in Hawaii with Larry Wilson and Gary Higbee as they were putting their book together, Inside Out. And I saw the book writing process for both of them and I was kind of like, “wow, this is kind of cool.” Although, having them discuss certain things and I saw the banter going back and forth, but that’s not what I thought was cool about it. But what I thought was cool about it was strategizing on the idea of what was going to go in the book.

And then of course, for me, what motivated me to write my book was, I saw the number four. I don’t know, I can’t explain it, I just saw it everywhere, the number four was everywhere. I saw it in brick buildings, I saw it on people’s addresses, I saw it in print. As a matter of fact, when I deliver SafeStart training, it’s 4×4 technology—four states, four errors, four critical error reduction techniques.

So, in combination, watching Larry and Gary banter back and forth on the strategy of ideas and then also seeing the number four, it quickly, just for me, I don’t know. I just thought, I’ve got to do something. And what motivated me was the combination of both of those and the idea of having one word come out of my book, which is MAPPED, that was what was important to me.

So yeah, it’s a serious undertaking, it took quite a few years. But nevertheless, having the undertaking and the motivation to do it, it came from a couple of places but mostly it was watching Larry and Gary and, of course, seeing the number four everywhere.

 

And M.A.P.P.E.D. stands for what?

M.A.P.P.E.D. stands for what motivates you, that’s the letter M; who are you accountable to, that’s the letter A; perfect practice for the two letter Ps; and then exercising discipline.

 

And last question. Where can people get a copy of The Core of Four?

Right now there’s several places they can get a copy. It’s on Amazon. It is also on Barnes & Noble for the Nook. And it’s on Apple iBooks and if you want an actual paperback copy you can go to the thecoreoffour.com and get you a copy there.

 

Hey Tim, thank you so much for your time today.

Hey Rodd. Thanks I appreciate it.